Sat May 4 04:06:06 2002

Anyway, with the current book i am reading, it starts with an account of how the world was created. Its not read as a story by the way, its more of here is an account of what happened with various people.

Without going into much details because there is too much to explain and a brief synopsis would be more confusing if I were to try it. I'll just point out a few things.

There was Illuvatar (sp?), or the ONE. He created 8 valinar (IIRC) that was concieved in his mind. THe valinar then started to sing a song which the Illuvatar had concieved but allowed the valinar to 'bring to life'.
Cutting to the chase, we have each valinar with different powers and strenghts. Melkor, the most powerful, and as power corrupts, becomes the 'evil' one that essentially is what brings evil into the world.

The song that the valinar sings is actually the song that will create the world. So eventually after a few more progressions and in addition to being given sight, the valinar proceed to create a world, 'earth', in accordance to the music that was first set. Melkor again is the one that attempts to add his own music, the corruption of the world. Where ever there is beauty he tries to vilify it such as 'Mt. Doom' which is his creation. Sauron is a servent of Melkor and actually one step below the valinar and one step above the 'earth bound creatures'. Evil by definition is self serving so Sauron himself though bound to Melkor, serves only his own desires.
Its like a melody that creates a phrase which then goes on to become independant of the harmony while remaining within the orchestration.

Well I did say its confusing and not easy to explain all this, especially since i've only read two chapters, so i could be very well wrong....

None the less, the valinar after the initial creation of the world also lives on it in different forms. They can appear to the various forms of life in what ever way they choose. Each valinar represents an aspect of the world, i.e. the second most powerful valinar, brother to Melkor, has power over the wind, another one was power over water, and so on. I think Tom Bombadillo is a valinar in 'human form' that is maybe master of the forest. Each valinar is also married and their wives also represent another aspect of nature or the world, and they too can appear in 'human forms' if they choose too. They make the world their homes.

So there you have it. Tom Bombadillo isn't some random character in LOTR, but is infact an important character for what JRR Tolkein had actually envisioned as part of a much larger story.

Just keep in mind that I could be wrong about Tom Bombadillo but reading this book so much of the world that LOTR is based on makes so much more sense. I love the story behind the jewels used to make the rings, which is what this book is about, but i read JRR Tolkein's letter that is in the begining of the book that shows what Tolkien had in mind.

Very interesting, inspite of the fact the book doesn't read like a typical story but almost like a mix of a history book and a mythology.

Sat May 4 04:22:00 2002

Tolkein intersperses some very powerful beings whose time it is not, but, who still enter the fray, because of the fantastic stakes involved with the ring.

Seems to me I remember a bear shape shifter in The Hobbit,
Bombidail(sp), a balrog, and a number of other, very powerful, yet not much more then tangentially related characters in the books.

The juxtaposition of such powerful beings, and how they involve themselves in the quest for the ring, including Gawhair(sp) are just a few of the beings screaming for more development in the Trilogy.

Tolkein, I believe, was also using these creatures to illustrate our mortality.  That, as we age, our concerns go from large, save the world, global concerns, to smaller, more focused, and easier to control areas of influence.

While before, in our earlier time, we may have had a vision of influencing a larger world, at the end of our lives we are happy to confine ourselves to a comfort zone, much smaller in size, but, one over which we may exercize great influence.

Perhaps Tolkein was experiencing his imagined sphere of influence diminishing, trying to deal with that process, and, describe it for young whipper snappers, like yourself;-)

gs

Sat May 4 04:59:49 2002

The interesting thing in the book is that the Illuvatar knows whats going on and to an extent so do the Valinar. Somethings have been foretold and written for it is the harmony they sing together int he begining that is the 'design' of the world which in it contains the history.

The idea of the ring and how the wearer becomes 'immoratal' is very well written too. Each being as a soul that lasts for a period of time. The ring doesn't make you live longer, but instead in idea, streaches the soul like a rubber band making living it self not as fruitful as it should be due to the strain.

JRR Tolkein's imagination is so fertile. Its during these times i find my self writing less because I find i can not come close to the worlds these authors have created in their minds. Its as if the world in my mind is but a mere ripple in a great river of imagination that flowed through greats like JRR Tolkien.

Sat May 4 05:01:58 2002

;)

(Edited by OscarWilde at 1:03 pm on May 4, 2002)

Sat May 4 07:17:34 2002

Sat May 4 12:47:22 2002

Tom Bombadil was not an important character in LOTR...he might have been in Tolkien's other books but he was a 'filler' in LOTR (a lot of stuff was filler IMO)...this is the gist of ol' Tom's role in LOTR:

"La, la la!  Oh look, a party of hobbits just wandered into my forest.  Hey little ones, come into my house, we'll sing songs and drink ourselves stupid.  Oh, what's that?  You want me to have this ring because I am a loner, unaffected by evil, and care not about what goes on in the outside world?  Oh no, I couldn't take this ring.  k thx bye!"

Filler!  It would just have added another 10 minutes or so to the movie...for what?  Nothing.  There was a quite a few moments like this last one in LOTR; events that had no impact on the rest of the story...didn't change a thing or didn't have a neat twist to it.  

LOTR was a good book...but some of the other Tolkien books were better.

Sat May 4 13:28:46 2002

Well, going back to the conversation I had with my PHD friend last week:

Bombadil is not a Valinar.  He is a Maiar, probably the most senior of this order.  This is the same order to which the Vistari and the Balrogs belonged, which basically could be described as Demi-God status.

his purpose remains unclear.  He is the biggest mystery in the books, but he is clearly above the forces of nature, the unnatural/supernatural, and the powers of Mordor.  Yet Elrond the Half-Elven says that even he will fall before the power of Sauron, though he will be the last.  This tells me he is not of the Valinar.  A theme that comes up in the story at least once is the theme of class order.  When the Fellowship confronts the Balrog at the Bridge, Gandalf says, "this foe is beyond any of you" to the rest of the group.  It's not like they couldn't have assisted gandalf in defeating this foe, but the purpose of the Vistari (the Wizards) was to marshall forces of Mortals to battle the mortal forces of Mordor, they couldn't directly call hellfire down on enemy troops, but they could engage with their peers (like the balrogs)

The thing to realise is that LOTR is a book that was written as a part of a much larger story/idea that JRR Tolkein had in mind. Unfortunately he never got to finish completely what he intended.

Tolkien was the greatest writer of the Inklings, a group of Christian writers that also included C.S. Lewis, author of the Narnia Series and "The Srewtape Letters" which is a judeochristain insight into the nature of human corruptability written as a correspondance between a senior demon and his protege'.

Tolkein wrote LOTR to fit into the scheme of the Bible, as a sort of preamble to it.  The continues story goes like this:

Mordor falls, yada yada yada, then Jesus Christ comes.  How this actually fits in is a scholarly pursuit that may take a lifetime to solve, this is according to my friend and I agree with the assesment.  Clearly you must read other of Tolkeins writing looking for clues, and it wouldn't hurt reading the Old and New Testiment.

Sat May 4 17:21:10 2002

the purpose of the Vistari (the Wizards) was to marshall forces of Mortals to battle the mortal forces of Mordor, they couldn't directly call hellfire down on enemy troops, but they could engage with their peers (like the balrogs)

Whoa, sounds a lot like Babylon 5 and the First Ones!  

Totally fascinating thread, guys, I never could figure out the Silmarillion at all (gave up reading after skimming it a bit-- too many names to remember!)

Sat May 4 18:41:12 2002

Off course I should learn to spell elvish but who can...

Sat May 4 18:44:36 2002

I shall refer your questions to his PHD goodness.

(and here I thought a PHD in English was useless, heh, so I was wrong)

:)

Sat May 4 20:05:08 2002

Sat May 4 20:14:00 2002

A PhD in English? Hmmm, he does know that Tolkien explicitly said that he was simply writing a story, right? He never intended any meaning to be derived from it.

Hmmm, never heard of that.  Anyway, it's still interesting to disect stuff.  Plus whether or not an author means to, he/she nearly always shares a subliminal insight into their own personal beliefs and values.

:)

Sat May 4 20:20:34 2002

Hmm, true AYB, but I got that from my copy of The Silmarillion, which includes a letter from Tolkien to his editor/publisher, where he explains about his story. I can easily see where the interpretations can be made though.

(Edited by Magus at 3:34 pm on May 4, 2002)