Mon Mar 4 23:43:54 2002

How much do you make a year(relax..I'm giving a range)..

A. >10k
B. 11-25k
C. 26-39k
D. 40-49k
E. 50-65k
F. 66-85k
G. 86-100k
H. 100k<

Second poll. How much do you want to make(seriously)?
What would it take to make you happy(assuming your paycheck never climbed higher than that for the rest of your life)?

A. >25k
B. 26k-40k
C. 41k-60k
D. 61-80k
E. 81-95k
F. 96k-120k
G. 121-250k
H. 251k<

I'll start.

E. And E.(minimum..I think 95k/year will still be good money 20 yrs from now.)

I want to know how much Peter makes, so I can strive to become l33t like him. ;)

M.

(Edited by Madan at 3:45 pm on Mar. 4, 2002)

Mon Mar 4 23:45:36 2002

I'll probably be making B here pretty soon

hopefully :(

Mon Mar 4 23:47:22 2002

Cheese and Crackers man! You know more than many admins I've served under!

Try the school system. They may not pay as much but they NEED technical, l33t, Swordphish kinda ppl!

M.

Tue Mar 5 00:01:06 2002

Tue Mar 5 00:55:45 2002

As for how much I'd like to make in the future, I dunno, it would depend on what expenses I had like family ect.

Tue Mar 5 01:01:55 2002

I'd be happy with H.  Might as well aim high, eh?

Tue Mar 5 01:04:37 2002

I shall do dev in my own time ;)

Tue Mar 5 01:56:27 2002

Tue Mar 5 02:02:32 2002

Tue Mar 5 07:38:17 2002

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

BASTARDS!

Fuck.

Tue Mar 5 12:34:35 2002

want to know how much Peter makes, so I can strive to become l33t like him.  

I'm not particularly motivated by money, though I'd like enough of it that I could do what I want.  This isn't ideal.

However, I'm growing dissatisfied with IT.  Not because I don't like (say) programming, but because I feel that ultimately, I'm having zero impact on the world.

I think I would like to teach.  Though being a doctor looks quite appealing.  My handwriting is bad enough, certainly.

Tue Mar 5 13:03:39 2002

You'd like to teach?

I'd like to code. Looks like we've got our cables crossed.

Why? Because as a teacher, with all the economic, social and generally-real-world constraints I have, I still *don't* feel like I'm making a change.  Heck, I'm not even sure if any of my kids will remember me 15 years from now. :/

Programmers of your caliber, as I've seen, tend to be considered to be intelligent(almost to a fault). Even though I've got a 6 year program for teaching(as do many), most don't consider teachers exceptionally bright. Culturally and socially, teachers are marginalized and spat upon.

And to make matters worse, at the end of the day, teachers make 35k. The only reason I make over 50k is because I work one "full timer", then part time at the Herald and a personal consulting biz I've carved for myself(scary, huh).

Still, maybe you meant college professor.

M.

(Edited by Madan at 5:05 am on Mar. 5, 2002)

Tue Mar 5 15:04:17 2002

You'd like to teach?

I'd like to code. Looks like we've got our cables crossed.

Why? Because as a teacher, with all the economic, social and generally-real-world constraints I have, I still *don't* feel like I'm making a change.  Heck, I'm not even sure if any of my kids will remember me 15 years from now. :/

Programmers of your caliber, as I've seen, tend to be considered to be intelligent(almost to a fault). Even though I've got a 6 year program for teaching(as do many), most don't consider teachers exceptionally bright. Culturally and socially, teachers are marginalized and spat upon.

It seems a bit of a waste, therefore, to do it full-time.  I also don't have any interest in any kind of managerial role whatsoever, which seems to be the logical progression from programming.

And to make matters worse, at the end of the day, teachers make 35k. The only reason I make over 50k is because I work one "full timer", then part time at the Herald and a personal consulting biz I've carved for myself(scary, huh).

Still, maybe you meant college professor.

Tue Mar 5 15:22:37 2002

Eventually I want to be the ruler of all time, space, and dimension.  I don't know what kind of salary that carries.

Tue Mar 5 15:33:49 2002

Oh, and H.

Tue Mar 5 16:21:42 2002

Eventually I want to be the ruler of all time, space, and dimension.  I don't know what kind of salary that carries.

The Mighty AYB already occupies that space :)

Tue Mar 5 16:29:54 2002

I suppose I'd prefer to work at a nice private school where the teachers are paid something acceptable.

I taught at Saint George's, where the teachers made exactly 2% more in salary than the public school teachers, but had approximately 2000% more workload and time committments.

"Nice private school"-- yeah, it's so nice that during the time I was there, there were two deaths, one heart attack, three nervous breakdowns and one extended hospitalization among the teaching staff.

Ugh.

Tue Mar 5 17:07:58 2002

The Mighty AYB already occupies that space :)

Tue Mar 5 17:12:26 2002

from HitScan posted at 12:07 pm on Mar. 5, 2002

And he just said he ain't making nothin! Better look someplace else Harb. :biggrin:

That's a good point.  Maybe I'll shoot for garbage collector.

Actually, I'd like my wife to make a lot of money.  That way, I can sit home and play with my computer-toys all day long.  Yeah, that's the ticket.

Tue Mar 5 17:39:14 2002

I suppose the only thing that keeps me teaching is the kids.

M.

Tue Mar 5 17:53:12 2002

Private school teachers *here* are generally better paid than their state education counterparts.

If one teaches at a decent public school (public school == old private secondary school, *not* state education) one will earn considerably more than one would earn in the state sector.  Consider the school I went to -- typically teachers earned £40K per annum -- not a huge amount in and of itself, but here's the kicker: they were housed and fed by the school.  Once you no longer have to pay rent, water, gas, electricity, or for much food, your money can go a lot further.

The good schools in this country pay their teachers something approximately what they're worth.

Tue Mar 5 18:20:41 2002

Actually, I'd like my wife to make a lot of money.  That way, I can sit home and play with my computer-toys all day long.  Yeah, that's the ticket.

That is a very fine idea :)

Tue Mar 5 18:53:52 2002

Those are the professors you remember, the ones that piss off the administration to the point of being fired.

Hell, if you don't get fired, more power to you.

Mon Mar 11 15:01:55 2002

UGH.

Mon Mar 11 15:13:32 2002

I'd like to be a college professor for a few years then get fired.

Or you could on the other hand be like the Priest(father) at our school who also thaught religion who is or was a catholic and had a fetish for boys. Well eventually some guys said they had enough of the sexual come ons and sued the guy. So he doesn't work there no more. I find it mildy ironic that this guy got busted but glad because that means one less religious hypocritical fuck in power.

Mon Mar 11 15:24:37 2002

Still, not to be a bigot but it does go a long ways to proving that ALL people have the potential to be thoughoughly evil. Even homosexuals.

What else would you would you call somone that goes after boys...

Except maybe "sick".

M.

(Edited by Madan at 7:36 am on Mar. 11, 2002)

Mon Mar 11 15:24:47 2002

What the HELL are they thinking with no marriage, no sex, and no real release of a totally human function?

DUH.

The scary thing was, I nearly became a priest, but I had major issues with no being able to have sex, with a WOMAN of all things mind you.

I personally think this is going to be the downfall of the Catholic Church in America.

The Pope better get off his butt and change some of these real issues before they get put under by law suits.

Being a Roman Catholic, at least still a bit, seeing this crap really pisses me off.

On a side note, when I was driving home from the office the other week, I passed by Cardinal Law leaving one of the churches mentioned in the latest abuse suit. He was being driven around in a very nice Lincoln towncar, followed by another one.

(Edited by Evil Merlin at 7:29 am on Mar. 11, 2002)

Mon Mar 11 15:52:45 2002

i have everything against religious people in power, or at least people who's religion becomes an influence in their power.

So if you're christian, muslim, jewish or the other denominations, check it outside the door before you enter...

besides i never understood religious tolerance?

what be tolerant?

be open minded, be understanding, be accepting of different views, agree to disagree, but the last thing i want is tolerance.

its a poor man's wisdom.

Mon Mar 11 15:53:17 2002

The scary thing was, I nearly became a priest

Whoa!

Mon Mar 11 15:59:56 2002

did ya know that Tom Cruise, as in the guy who was hitting teh nicole kidman pu-tang and is now eating at teh Penelope Cruz table, was on his way to becoming a full fledged priest.

I suppose he realised, pussy, money, fame.

Mon Mar 11 16:50:28 2002

What the HELL are they thinking with no marriage, no sex, and no real release of a totally human function?

DUH.

I don't think there's a heavy corrolation. There are gay kid offenders that are married.  A lot. What was their riff?

I think it's just a disrespect for decency. Tha's  the problem.

M.

(Edited by Madan at 8:52 am on Mar. 11, 2002)

Mon Mar 11 16:51:50 2002

from OscarWilde posted at 10:59 am on Mar. 11, 2002

did ya know that Tom Cruise ... was on his way to becoming a full fledged priest.

Well, after all he IS gay. ;)

Mon Mar 11 17:47:42 2002

Gay or not does not matter, if there is no release for the sexual energies and such that build within us as normal human beings, something breaks.

Mon Mar 11 18:12:28 2002

True Madan. However you don't hear a lot about the Episcopalian Church, which is VERY VERY similar to the Catholic Church having the same issues...

Perhaps. But that's maybe because we simply haven't *heard* about it. The Catholic religion has a big target on its head when it comes to the media.

I don't think anyone can deny this as in the last few years, "religious fanatic" == christian/catholic on the news.

M.

Mon Mar 11 18:28:10 2002

Mon Mar 11 18:31:56 2002

from Evil Merlin posted at 9:47 am on Mar. 11, 2002

, if there is no release for the sexual energies and such that build within us as normal human beings, something breaks.

Maybe that explains my problems.

Mon Mar 11 18:32:58 2002

The Catholic faith is one of the few group descriptives  that is *ok* to deride in today's society.

M.

Mon Mar 11 19:11:13 2002

from Evil Merlin posted at 1:28 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

But have you honestly seen any other religious organization villified like the Catholic Church in recent years? Hell it seems like more people are after them than the Television Evangilists.

The Jews.

Mon Mar 11 19:21:40 2002

from OscarWilde posted at 10:52 am on Mar. 11, 2002

i have nothing against catholics.

i have everything against religious people in power, or at least people who's religion becomes an influence in their power.

So if you're christian, muslim, jewish or the other denominations, check it outside the door before you enter...

besides i never understood religious tolerance?

what be tolerant?

be open minded, be understanding, be accepting of different views, agree to disagree, but the last thing i want is tolerance.

its a poor man's wisdom.

My views on religion have changed a lot since I started dating an orthodox Jew.  I used to engage in theological discussions in sideways attempts to discount organized religion.  I'd say stuff like, "It's obvious that there's no God" or other goading statements.

Then I realized something.  

Convincing someone that religion is "false" is about the same as convincing a wrestling fan that wrestling is fake.  Those who don't watch professional wrestling "know" that it is fake, a sham, whatever.  However, if you attempt to force this opinion on wrestling fans, they won't buy it.  Whether it's that they know that it's "fake" or they just are willing to blindly accept that it is what it is is irrelevant.  The point is, they believe where others don't.

To wrestling fans, believing in wrestling seems perfectly natural.  Same with religion.  It's just one of those things you either believe or don't.  It's can't about a more enlightened POV, because religion or lack thereof isn't provable.

So, for this reason, I'm tolerant of organized religion.  

Mon Mar 11 19:29:36 2002

Convincing someone that religion is "false" is about the same as convincing a wrestling fan that wrestling is fake.  Those who don't watch professional wrestling "know" that it is fake, a sham, whatever.  However, if you attempt to force this opinion on wrestling fans, they won't buy it.

I'm a wrestling fan

I know where and how it's fake.

I don't care.  It's entertainment.  Do you stop watching Television because it's fake?  Do you not have sex0Rs with a woman because you know she's faking it?

More peops who watchs wrestling know that it's fake as opposed to silly women who watch soap operas

:cheesy:

Mon Mar 11 19:52:51 2002

Convincing someone that religion is "false" is about the same as convincing a wrestling fan that wrestling is fake.  Those who don't watch professional wrestling "know" that it is fake, a sham, whatever.  However, if you attempt to force this opinion on wrestling fans, they won't buy it.  Whether it's that they know that it's "fake" or they just are willing to blindly accept that it is what it is is irrelevant.  The point is, they believe where others don't.

:rolleyes:

Please.

You're comparing God(any interpretation) to Smackdown? Is that the sound of your IQ plummeting I hear?

I'm a science teacher, not some moron. I believe in God because the order in the universe leads me to believe that happenstance can't be behind such infinite corrolation. You don't hear me calling anyone else an idiot because they don't.

Talk about "acceptance".

M.

Mon Mar 11 20:00:07 2002

Mon Mar 11 20:29:45 2002

Mon Mar 11 20:35:08 2002

Mon Mar 11 20:40:24 2002

Mon Mar 11 21:14:57 2002

from HitScan posted at 3:00 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

The problem I see with your analogy RQE (and I suspect this is why Mad doesn't much dig it either, from the look of things ;) ) is that there is one important distinction between wrestling and religion, wrestling is provably fake, whereas religion is no more provably fake than it is provably real. That, and if the G man was a big wrestlemania freak, I might ask Satan what he's up to for the next few mellinia. :biggrin:

There you go.  I wasn't making the analogy to make a not-so-subtle jab that "religion = fake", just that entrenchment is entrenchment in all fields of belief.

The Jew's have Israel now. They do what they want when they want, hell the US Govenment gives them billions of dollars a year, plus all the best weapon systems...

And what about the Jews that don't live in Israel?

Anti-Semitism sucks.

Mon Mar 11 21:17:43 2002

It's anti-jewish.

Anti-semitism would include anti-arab.

Because 90% of all jews arent semites.

Mon Mar 11 21:29:55 2002

"clueless".

Jeez, is it me or is this place turning into BF?

What's next? Mac trolls made by BFG?
Win trolls made by RR?
Venture knocking on everyone's door to smam?

Shit.

M.

(Edited by Madan at 1:34 pm on Mar. 11, 2002)

(Edited by Madan at 1:35 pm on Mar. 11, 2002)

Mon Mar 11 21:35:38 2002

Mon Mar 11 22:01:18 2002

from Riso posted at 4:17 pm on Mar. 11, 2002

That's not anti-semitism clueless.

It's anti-jewish.

Anti-semitism would include anti-arab.

Because 90% of all jews arent semites.

I'm well aware of that fact, but going to the dictionary gives me anti-semitism as hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Same with pop. usage.

I'll use that.

Mon Mar 11 22:02:23 2002

Mon Mar 11 22:29:15 2002

Popular usage is needed in language to provide a frame of reference.  I'm just trying to keep us on the same page, but apparently the pedants can't deal..

Mon Mar 11 22:41:49 2002

It was not anti anything, except mayhap anti-current US Policy.

I could give a fuck where anyone lives. Crux of the matter is Israel, Jewish state, Palistinian state or Christian state, I don't give a flying leap. Israel sucks.

Tue Mar 12 12:42:15 2002

I'm also anti-xtian, anti-muslim, and anti-everyfuckingbody else, so I guess that makes it OK.

The only people I really approve of are those I want sex with.

Tue Mar 12 13:06:52 2002

We're both bitter bitter men.

Tue Mar 12 14:07:57 2002

what say you then?

Tue Mar 12 14:10:05 2002

Tue Mar 12 14:19:35 2002

Tue Mar 12 14:38:54 2002

;)

The only people I really approve of are those I want sex with.

Truer words are rarely spoken. :)

Tue Mar 12 14:50:21 2002

I'm pro-arab, pro-palestine,pro-abortion and pro-animal.

Tue Mar 12 15:17:29 2002

Tue Mar 12 15:19:29 2002

Tue Mar 12 15:35:26 2002

Tue Mar 12 16:10:07 2002

Tue Mar 12 16:52:58 2002

from OscarWilde posted at 2:07 pm on Mar. 12, 2002

what if you approve of the people you want to have sex with but they don't approve of having sex with you, or rather they don't approve of your desires of having sex with them?

what say you then?

I might kill a few kittens, too.

Tue Mar 12 20:20:30 2002

from OscarWilde posted at 11:10 am on Mar. 12, 2002

LOL@Harb

Thank you, thank you.  I was wondering if my post was gonna make sense. ;)

Tue Mar 12 20:43:16 2002

Tue Mar 12 20:57:08 2002

Tue Mar 12 21:33:08 2002

from DuffMan posted at 8:43 pm on Mar. 12, 2002

Why is everybody so anti-israel. They're no different than any other country that locked in a blood war with annother people. Britain, Ireland, Serbia, Pakistan, India. Whatever, its all the same. You kill some of our people, we kill some of your people to try to scare you into backing down. It has nothing to do with religion, or even the Jewish people as an ethnic group.

And because America on the one hand has this ludicrous "war on global terrorism" but on the other hand props the Israelis up.

Wed Mar 13 02:56:29 2002

I'm a science teacher, not some moron. I believe in God because the order in the universe leads me to believe that happenstance can't be behind such infinite corrolation.

In other words, the universe is too complicated an entity to arise on its own, and requires a designer?

My response to that is that if you accept that anything of significant complexity requires a designer, then the designer him/her/itself must require a designer, and so on, ad infinitum.  Because the designer/deity must, logically, be more complex than what he/she/it has designed, therefore by the same argument he/she/it is too complex to have arisen spontaneously, or to have existed eternally.

So having a God explains nothing, because there needs to be a greater God to create the first God, and so on, and then you run into ridiculousness.

The troubling question that there are too many correlations (physical constants aligning the right way, etc) in the universe to have happened at random is easily explained.  Just imagine an infinite number of universes all with random physical laws.  Our universe would have to exist among them, because in infinite combinations all possibilities exist.

See?  No need for a designer.

Not that I'm ruling one out, you understand.  But the universe doesn't necessarily require one.

Wed Mar 13 03:26:48 2002

Thu Mar 14 02:06:44 2002

from Magus posted at 10:26 pm on Mar. 12, 2002

Pascal's wager.

Did he win? :confused:

:tongue:

Thu Mar 14 04:20:34 2002

It assumes that if you DO make the choice to believe in a God that it will be the right god.

Thu Mar 14 05:43:25 2002

If so, it's a weak argument, for the reasons RQE stated, and also because it presents God as a being that is so petty that his/her/its only consideration for choosing whether someone goes to heaven or hell is WHETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON BELIEVED IN HIM/HER/IT.  Which is petty and childish... a being with supreme power would ignore any good deeds done during someone's lifetime and just say "no, sorry, you didn't believe in me (enough), off you go".  I could never respect a Deity like that and wouldn't want to worship one even if it did exist.

I've thought about the whole Supreme Being thing a long, long time and the only conclusion I can come to is that WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Thu Mar 14 06:58:58 2002

Think about your good deeds argument though. By that logic, there are some who'd be good simply to brag. The way it is, all you have to do is accept that God loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. That's a gift; you don't earn heaven. I hope you'll think about it some more.

"Logic without faith is blind, faith without logic is mad."

Thu Mar 14 07:48:17 2002

from Magus posted at 1:58 am on Mar. 14, 2002

I say in total sincerity then, I feel very sorry for you.

Think about your good deeds argument though. By that logic, there are some who'd be good simply to brag. The way it is, all you have to do is accept that God loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. That's a gift; you don't earn heaven. I hope you'll think about it some more.

"Logic without faith is blind, faith without logic is mad."

Wait, I'm confused.  Where does it say that believing in a Judeo-Christian God is what's required to get into heaven?

Thu Mar 14 08:59:44 2002

The way it is, all you have to do is accept that God loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. That's a gift; you don't earn heaven. I hope you'll think about it some more.

Do we also believe that God is a perfect white man?

And that jesus was a blue eyed blonde?

Oh and do we also forget that in the 21st century we pooh pooh on people who claim to be the 'son of god' but millions of people believe in the same type of person only because we had unsophisticated people believe him a long time ago and thus created generations of followers.

Add to all that all we have are accounts of actions from a book and and as we all know the written word is might powerful indeed. So powerful it has WORDS made a man that can heal with his hands, walk on water, rise from the dead. Infact the word is so fucking powerful it has perpetuated a myth into a fact believed by thousands of generations of people.

Heh, i'm glad i'm a writer in my spare time. One day i shall have millions of magus'es who believe the word just because its been inbreed into western society.

Yay!

You see the only real god is the writer. Fuck without us writers none of you would even have a supreme being to believe in.

Know what i mean?

The writer created the supreme being. The writer can sacrafice the son of god. The writer ultimately owns you.

;)

(Edited by OscarWilde at 4:01 pm on Mar. 14, 2002)

Thu Mar 14 10:02:46 2002

The pay in what I do isn't great, but its interesting (to me, anyway).

I sell components into opto-telecomms systems, from Japanese manufacturers. A lot of this is consulting work with engineers, clean room stuff, and translating for Japanese engineers.

Thu Mar 14 10:24:10 2002

It's amazing how white people (I am not white), always paint the world around them with the white paintbrush when deemed important.

Thu Mar 14 11:41:08 2002

from Magus posted at 3:26 am on Mar. 13, 2002

Pascal's wager.

By that logic, there are some who'd be good simply to brag.

Thu Mar 14 12:56:43 2002

What I find amazing is more than likely Jesus was a very dark arab, or maybe even partially of African decent...

It's amazing how white people (I am not white), always paint the world around them with the white paintbrush when deemed important.

Actually, anthropological study indicates that Jesus, as a northern hebrite would have been a cross between what is now an israeli and and arabic.

M.

Thu Mar 14 14:55:09 2002

Thu Mar 14 16:06:56 2002

=)

Thu Mar 14 17:34:12 2002

heh.

The entire premise of Jesus is to love all others with no exception. To love, even your enemies.  To fight, only to protect yourself.

These principles are often misrepresented by many people and yet, ultimately, the Catholic faith is to blame.

Idiots spout: "I'm Catholic...death to niggers and jews!" and the media calls them Catholic.

It's absurd.
If I called myself an alien doesn't mean I *am* one..

M.

Thu Mar 14 17:35:31 2002

I say in total sincerity then, I feel very sorry for you.

You feel sorry for me?  Do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?

Do you also feel sorry for Hindus?  Buddhists?  All atheists and agnostics?  That's a hell of a lot of people to feel sorry for/superior to.

Think about your good deeds argument though. By that logic, there are some who'd be good simply to brag. The way it is, all you have to do is accept that God loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. That's a gift; you don't earn heaven. I hope you'll think about it some more.

It's not a gift, it's a cop-out.  It's saying that what one believes in is more important than what one actually does.

So, theoretically, a mass-murderer and rapist who believes in God will go to heaven, whereas someone like, say, Ghandi, would not.

Does that make any kind of sense?

Thu Mar 14 17:52:56 2002

It's not a gift, it's a cop-out.  It's saying that what one believes in is more important than what one actually does.

So, theoretically, a mass-murderer and rapist who believes in God will go to heaven, whereas someone like, say, Ghandi, would not.

According to major Catholic cross-sections like the Marists and Jesuits, *what* you believe is not the only determinant.

A non-christian person that is good and pure is not automatically damned.  The Pope has spoken about this at length.

BTW, no person that believes in God, and that has accepted his message honestly would be a total psycho like the example of the murderer/rapist you provided. They SAY they believe in God but, as you put, "actions are louder than words".

I think it's sad that the Catholic faith is continously misrepresented to the benefit of the perverse. And the general public lets it happen.

Believe it or not, "fair-weather Catholics" outnumber "real" Catholics almost 3 to one.  Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the world(1999) according to global studies but how many are active in the church? How many adhere to the principles of Christianity or, more specifically, Catholicism? Most people say they're Catholic but can't even name some basic tenets/principles. It's absurd.

I'm sorry, but if you *say* one thing and do another...*that* is a cop out and NO, you are NOT a "Catholic".

And if you want to get into "condescending", try the attitude many religious ppl(not just Catholics) get when they talk to an *atheist*....

M.

Thu Mar 14 19:19:49 2002

KKK are a Protestant Church
most of the White Supremists are anti Black, anti Jew and ALSO anti Catholic.

Thu Mar 14 19:50:03 2002

According to major Catholic cross-sections like the Marists and Jesuits, *what* you believe is not the only determinant.

A non-christian person that is good and pure is not automatically damned.  The Pope has spoken about this at length.

BTW, no person that believes in God, and that has accepted his message honestly would be a total psycho like the example of the murderer/rapist you provided. They SAY they believe in God but, as you put, "actions are louder than words".

How many adhere to the principles of Christianity or, more specifically, Catholicism? Most people say they're Catholic but can't even name some basic tenets/principles. It's absurd.

It's probably just as well they don't bother finding out.

I'm sorry, but if you *say* one thing and do another...*that* is a cop out and NO, you are NOT a "Catholic".

To fight, only to protect yourself.

BTW, it seems the more racist people come from the Protestant Churches...

KKK are a Protestant Church
most of the White Supremists are anti Black, anti Jew and ALSO anti Catholic.

That they might consider themselves to be protestant -- just as Hitler [probably] considered himself to be RC -- does not make it so.

Thu Mar 14 20:25:33 2002

They're no more protestants than Hitler was a catholic.

That they might consider themselves to be protestant -- just as Hitler [probably] considered himself to be RC -- does not make it so.

 Actually Hitler considered himself of a Germanic "wicca" style "religion" that worshipped the old Germanic "gods"

Thu Mar 14 21:07:16 2002

According to Jesus, it is.

Uh, no. Jesus in several books within the New Testament even approaches "gentiles" and in several parables indicates that the "goodness of a man" outweighs his "religious responsibilities".

Which is why his greatest tenet is still so prevalent:

Feed others and you feed me. Clothe others and you clothe me. etc.

It's also one of the reasons why Jesus is called "Son of Man".(that and the fact that his sacrifice was for the collective absolvement of man)

Quote: A non-christian person that is good and pure is not automatically damned.  The Pope has spoken about this at length.

Who the fuck is he to comment on the situation?

A spiritual focus of the Catholic church and one of the individuals that "sets the pace" for the religion.

Quote: BTW, no person that believes in God, and that has accepted his message honestly would be a total psycho like the example of the murderer/rapist you provided. They SAY they believe in God but, as you put, "actions are louder than words".

If they accept Jesus as their saviour and are rependent for their sins on their deathbed, that's "good enough".  Regardless of any and all prior actions.

If they *truly* feel that way, yes. Judgement, conceivably will take care of him. But accepting Jesus is not enough. Realization and repentance of his ill actions *are* necessary.

The fact that you would believe otherwise simply exhibits the brutal amount of ignorance pervasive about Catholic philosophies.

So far, however, you've been *quite* wrong about a great many things.

Quote: How many adhere to the principles of Christianity or, more specifically, Catholicism? Most people say they're Catholic but can't even name some basic tenets/principles. It's absurd.

If they examined what catholicism entailed, they'd probably reject it out of hand.  I mean, really.  Transubstantiation?

... This doesn't address my statement, so I'll ignore it.

It's probably just as well they don't bother finding out.

Quote: I'm sorry, but if you *say* one thing and do another...*that* is a cop out and NO, you are NOT a "Catholic".

But, fortunately for you, it's A-OK.

I never said anything of the sort. I can tell you're desperate to get a rise out of me. You can act like a pompous, know-nothing ass but it won't work. I'm tired today. I'm not in the mood. Needless to say, I never said anything of the sort.

Quote: To fight, only to protect yourself.  

I don't see Jesus advocating any such thing.

Jesus himself never did. He was the "lamb of God". He was meant to be sacrificed and he understood this to some level. You're confusing his willingness to "turn the other cheek" on several occasions with his message. In reality, war is *not* a part of his plan but he did describe "destruction and apocalypse" including the arrival of "hosts"(angels) and had indicated on several situations that a man was allowed to protect himself from the world(animals..nature). This is opposite to many eastern philosophies that stress non-violence over the perpetuation of life.

They're no more protestants than Hitler was a catholic.

Uhm, *NO*. Hitler was NOT a Catholic. This is already a proven fallacy that is perpetuated by ignorant affirmations with little actual anthropological substantiation.  While Hitler never professed himself to be Catholic(he worshiped pagan god*S*), he wouldn't technically be Catholic anyways because a Catholic is someone that follows the teachings of Jesus and Jesus abhorred violence and the persectution of others.

In fact, several thousand Catholics paid for their lives  during the Second World War for practicing Catholicism, aiding Jews and speaking out against him.

You really have no clue what you're talking about.

M.

Thu Mar 14 21:15:15 2002

Thu Mar 14 21:59:03 2002

M.

Thu Mar 14 23:07:03 2002

from Jeremy Reimer posted at 11:35 am on Mar. 14, 2002

You feel sorry for me?  Do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?

Do you also feel sorry for Hindus?  Buddhists?  All atheists and agnostics?

That's a hell of a lot of people to feel sorry for/superior to.

Fri Mar 15 07:19:41 2002

I didn't mean for you to take it that way, and apologize if I've given offense.

That's okay, I just don't like that phrase, "feeling sorry for you".  One feels sorry for people with terminal diseases, that sort of thing.

I feel sorry for the atheists and agnostics, yes. As to the Hindus and Buddhists, good non-Christians aren't damned. They may have a different name for Him, but they believe in God.

Um.... no.  Hindus and Buddhists do not believe in God.  It's not like Islam where it's just God with a different name.  It's a whoooooole different ball of wax.

Where did I say I felt superior?

When you said you felt sorry for me (and anyone else who thinks the way I do)

Fri Mar 15 07:22:23 2002

A non-christian person that is good and pure is not automatically damned.  The Pope has spoken about this at length.

But the Pope is not the entirety of the Christian church.  In this very thread Magus said:

The way it is, all you have to do is accept that God loves you enough to send His Son to die for you. That's a gift; you don't earn heaven

which gives the impression that belief is all that matters, that deeds mean nothing.

Fri Mar 15 11:20:56 2002

 Actually Hitler considered himself of a Germanic "wicca" style "religion" that worshipped the old Germanic "gods"

But accepting Jesus is not enough. Realization and repentance of his ill actions *are* necessary.

The fact that you would believe otherwise simply exhibits the brutal amount of ignorance pervasive about Catholic philosophies.

This is why Gandhi goes to hell, but a mass-murderer could make it into heaven.

I never said anything of the sort

Uhm, *NO*. Hitler was NOT a Catholic. This is already a proven fallacy that is perpetuated by ignorant affirmations with little actual anthropological substantiation.  While Hitler never professed himself to be Catholic(he worshiped pagan god*S*),

he wouldn't technically be Catholic anyways because a Catholic is someone that follows the teachings of Jesus and Jesus abhorred violence and the persectution of others.

IOW, we're in violent agreement, but such is your persecution complex that you can't even see it.

Fri Mar 15 12:37:51 2002

Fri Mar 15 12:39:25 2002

But the Pope is not the entirety of the Christian church.  In this very thread Magus said:

Uhm, what's your point? He's a focal point for the Catholic church.

M.

Fri Mar 15 14:11:10 2002

Pizza, not true at all. Read Unholy Alliance, and it will open your eyes to just how nutty the crazy bastard was and how obsessed with the ancient Germanic gods and magic practices...

In any case, I will tend to take Hitler's own commentary on his beliefs over those of some third party.

Fri Mar 15 14:42:29 2002

No he didn't.  He held monotheistic views ("Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. " from Mein Kampf), and, further, he regarded himself a catholic, ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so", from Gerhard Engel's diary, quoting a statement made by Hitler in private).

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/object5.html

Moreover, the material you quoted comes from the same sites that excerpt content from "overlapping authors"...

Unfortunately,  few remaining authors continue to push the idea that Hitler was a "normal Catholic" as he puts it, even though he ordered the extermination of millions of Jews. I believe it's important to take the *source* of the comments you're parroting into a reasonable context. Many of the sites out  there are rabidly anti-Catholic and has been resentful of the Roman Catholic Church for some time now. If  you go to google and look for information about Hitler and Catholicism, the sites that push Hitler's Catholicism provided *all* have the same text because the "authors" of these sites are parroting the same incorrect rantings that originated within a small set of volumes. In short, the sites are *feeding* each other.

For example:

Hitler Was Not An Atheist
... claim Adolph Hitler was one. Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political
institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and ...
www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

The Religion of Hitler
... was one. What a crock! Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political
institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and an ...
www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

HitmanHQ Messageboard powered by Ikonboard
... he was bigger than God. Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political
institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and an ...
dynamic.gamespy.com/~hitman47/ikonboard/printpage.cgi?forum=1&topic=294 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

And  that was only on the first two pages of my search alone! Peter, a lot of the information you're using is simply perpetuated and recycled through bigotry.

Moreso, look at the *links* involved on said sites. "secular"? These are mostly aetheist sites that have a bone to pick with Roman Catholicism. The disdain dripping off of these sites is mind-bending. As Jeremy put it: "Condescending", indeed.

Or another one like this one that has Hitler professing his "Christianity".

But look at the URL: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

"Nobeliefs" Does this sound impartial? Or does it sound like it has an axe to grind. Seriously?

Here are some impartial assessments. They explain more deeply that Hitler was actually a hybrid, believing in both Hellensitic and Lutheran philosophies. He professed himself to be Christian but never Catholic and he wished to seize power from the Pope in order to further his goals of world supplantation.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob37.html

This quote lists the friction between Catholicism and Hitler's Nationalistic views within Austria:

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/REVIEWS/Bukey.HTM

Interesting quote from above:

Catholics and Nazis intensified a struggle over who would control Austrian Catholicism's fate.

And yet even research like this can be off. For example, Austria's Catholic population at the time was a bit under 30% of the total population and yet, during a Viennese riot that lead to persecutory behavior against Jews, the Catholic faith was the first group blamed. What happened to the other 60%?(10% were Jewish)

In this link:

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/object5.html

This quote is exceptionally interesting:

Though Adolph Hitler was baptized Catholic as an infant, he did not practice the Faith later in life. In fact, he completely rejected Christianity as an adult, since he thought it was a "weak" religion because of its emphasis on peace and forgiveness. Instead, Hitler favored a militaristic and racist mishmash of neo-paganism and occultism, which he considered more suitable for the so-called "Aryan supermen" whom he thought would take over the world.
Here are some quotes which show what Hitler thought of Christianity:

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," -- Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.
"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," -- Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.
Definitely not the words of a good Catholic!
As for Benito Mussolini, he wasn't a practicing Catholic either. He had a mistress and had a lot of people killed; the Church does not approve of someone breaking the Fifth and Sixth Commandments! Hitler's slaughter of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Poles and yes, many Catholics such as Sts. Edith Stein and Maximillan Kolbe, is also despicable according to Catholic moral teaching. A good Catholic would never engage in mass murder.
Finally, neither Hitler nor Mussolini had Catholic funerals, so their deaths were as unChristian as their lives.

Or this site, that explains a lot of misconceptions:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_churchandnazis.html

Or this site:

http://www.manaco.simplenet.com/piusxii.html

http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/pub/soc.religion.christian/faq/hitler

The above quote discusses how Hitler used Catholicism as a "shield" to protect him from a backlash of Catholic German/Austrian believers and dumped the ideology when it was no longer convenient and when he had cemented his power.

This is a simpler, more elementary study of his beliefs but it is impartial and shows that he was neither Christian, nor atheist(towards his rampage he had pseudo Hellenistic views that focused on the establishment of the occult and mythological histories):http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

This link is admittedly partial(to a fault, almost) but I'm including it because it has a large database of books that show that Hitler used Christianity as a "smokescreen" during his early career to "throw the hounds off his trail": http://www.holycross.edu/departments/history/vlapomar/persecut/nazi.html

I think that's enough for now but the point is simple and composed of two core ideas:

A. Hitler was disdainful of Catholicism. Catholics were murdured at his hand and, during the war, he displayed non-Catholic religisous beliefs flagrantly. The sources indicating otherwise are few, far between and repetitious.

B. Even *if* Hitler had practiced Christianity(he was Lutheran before his ascendancy because he "disliked the pomp of the Catholic church"), his actions would have precluded him from being Catholic.

If I profess myself to be an orange, am I an orange or a human being? Sometimes, words have to be discounted.

Quote: But accepting Jesus is not enough. Realization and repentance of his ill actions *are* necessary.
Which is precisely what I meant when I said are rependent for their sins.  Yes, there's a typo in there, but the meaning is clear.

Yes, the core ideology of Catholicism is forgiveness and while Hitler wasn't Catholic, there are many bad people that have been very closely tied to the Catholic Church. And the Jewish Religion. And Budhism. And Muslim. And Hindii and everything else.

But yes, you must repent all of your sins and be *honest* about it. Honest doesn't mean afraid of punishment after death. Repentant means *sincerely* mournful of the sins you have committed because it was destructive, induced suffering and was contrary to God....not because you're avoiding hell.

Many atheists don't understand that and think that simply saying "I belive in God" or "I'm sorry  for what I did", will absolve you of blame.  It doesn't work that way.

This is why Gandhi goes to hell, but a mass-murderer could make it into heaven.

??? Uhm, you do know that the Pope recently honored Ghandi? Right? No? Well, now your'e informed.

Quote: he wouldn't technically be Catholic anyways because a Catholic is someone that follows the teachings of Jesus and Jesus abhorred violence and the persectution of others.
Hence my claim that Klansmen are no more protestants than Hitler is a catholic.  Hitler called himself a catholic, Klansmen call themselves protestents.  Their claims, however, do not make them protestants (or catholics).  I was countering Evil Merlin's claim of how most hate groups are protestant -- that they're hate groups means that they're necessarily not members of any xtian sect, as membership of a hate group is mutually exclusive with following Jesus' teachings.

Agreed.

IOW, we're in violent agreement, but such is your persecution complex that you can't even see it.

On the contrary. I always find it sad when atheists, pagans and other religious believers attempt to indoctrinate me about what Catholicism is *really* about.

And I see it all the time. Unfortunately, it's much like the problem concerning computer platforms. You have a person(possibly atheist) that wants to live a life without discipline and resents an organization forcing tenets upon him/her. He has a bad experience with one "Christian" and automatically, that makes any canned comments about Catholicism fair game.

I see it all the time on the street. I came out of church two years ago and a man ran up to me and screamed "you think I should go to hell because I'm not Christian like you! You want to take my rights away to live my life!"(para)

After the initial shock subsided and I realized that he wasn't going to become physical(although I felt for awhile he was considering it), it dawned upon me that Catholicism had made a social 180 going from accepted norm to outcast. Here I was attending a religious service and all I wanted to do was practice my devotion to *my* God  with peace and harmony and we had a large group of abortion protesters throwing bottles, cans and chanting outside our church.

Was he aetheist? Muslim? Maybe even a disgruntled Catholic? I have no clue.

The event lead to police to the scene. It was in the local paper in the "Local" section in a one column box.

And yet abortion clinics blown up by professed "Christians" are on every newspaper and web site from here to San Diego...

So my original premise still stands. I do believe Catholicism has become a target for the masses.

M.

(Edited by Madan at 7:03 am on Mar. 15, 2002)

Fri Mar 15 17:13:42 2002

You are making my point for me over and over again.

Evil Merlin complains that most "hate groups" are protestants.

I retort that they're no more protestant than Hitler was a cathollic -- which is to say, in spite of their claims (the KKK's claim to be protestant, Hitler's claims to be catholic), they are not that which they claim to be.  Evil Merlin's apparent attempt to discredit protestants is flawed for the same reasons as attempts to discredit the catholic church by associating it with Hitler are flawed -- these people do not represent the church in question, because their actions are diametrically opposed to the teachings of those churches.

You rant and rave about how Hitler's actions preclude his being a catholic.  Congratulations -- what's the point you're trying to make?

=======

But yes, you must repent all of your sins and be *honest* about it. Honest doesn't mean afraid of punishment after death. Repentant means *sincerely* mournful of the sins you have committed because it was destructive, induced suffering and was contrary to God....not because you're avoiding hell.

Many atheists don't understand that and think that simply saying "I belive in God" or "I'm sorry  for what I did", will absolve you of blame.  It doesn't work that way

And again -- what the hell does the pope have to do with anything?  He doesn't (can't) speak for Jesus.  And unless he's telling us that the bible is wrong, he's in no position to say "oh, yes, so-and-so can go to heaven".

Fri Mar 15 17:48:18 2002

Madan, are you fucking retarded?

Yes. :rolleyes:

You are making my point for me over and over again.

Actually, no I'm not. Your point keeps changing over and over again due to, as you put it, "typos".

If you didn't have your "typos" and made some sense, maybe I wouldn't have to have given such a lengthy exposition.

:)

M.

Fri Mar 15 17:58:38 2002

And just because the current pope is somewhat more enlightened does not mean that previous ones were.  There have been some downright nasty popes througought history, many of whom officially supported wholesale slaughter.

Fri Mar 15 19:45:50 2002

Fri Mar 15 19:49:12 2002

Evil Merlin complains that most "hate groups" are protestants.

I complained no such thing. I was simply stating a fact. MOST of the hate groups within the United States, and most (not all) of the world, believe themselves to be Christian groups, most of which have some type of issue with the Catholic Church and the Pope, most visible of course being most of the White Supremist groups. Of course it is Christanity bent to their own desires.

Sun Mar 17 01:40:28 2002

Go to church once a year, network with all of the other rich WASP's, say hi to the minister when you see her in town.

You're then a "good Christian" in their eyes.

Sun Mar 17 16:45:25 2002

Besides Episcopalian is Catholic Lite.

Sun Mar 17 21:42:19 2002

Besides Episcopalian is Catholic Lite.

I thought that was Lutheranism?  ;)

To be honest, I haven't done any study or comparisons of the various Protestant sects, so I wouldn't mind any info that can be offered on this subject.

Mon Mar 18 05:20:47 2002

its like me philosophy professor once said, "if you must use extremes to prove a point, you prove nothing at all"

that said, who gives a fuck if HItler was a true catholic or not or of the KKK is in large part a member of some christian sect.

Hitler's idealogy had little to do with religion and more to do with a european belief that whites/europeans were the latest stage in human evolution. Plus hitler needed a scapegoat to push get support from the majority.

Kinda like how minorities are target in england because its believed by some brits that they lost their jobs or can't get their jobs because the english companies are hiring cheaper labour from asian countries. So asians are targeted by disgruntled unemployed morons. If this population was large enough then you could in effect have quite significant politcal force. Germany at the time had this deadly mix of unemployement, political and economical turmoil and a growing belief in the twisted darwinism. Where does christianity play into all this?

ANyway, if you want to talk about the churches envolvment in crimes lets talk about the spanish and their genocide of the american indians.

In the name of christ i shall claim america. Okay it was for the queen of spain. (or was it king?)
Anyway it was believed that if you were not a subject of christ you were of a lesser person. People were apparently killed in the name of christ.

Then lets go on about the genocide of the australian aborigines.

As to the pope he's gonna die and goto hell. I hate the fucking pope. WHY?

Well it goes like this:

There was an incident in India where two catholic missionaries were killed by local indian villagers.
Apparently the missonaries were saying if you believe in christ we can give you tv and food. ANd that thier local gods didn't give them this. So only if they believed in christ would they get such things.
Now this would piss of anybody. If you're going to be charitable good for you, but don't impose some bullshit where you're suggesting that some white blue eyed blonde son of god is the cause of technology and food. And then go on to say that you must believe in this bullshit.
Unfortunately these missionaries were killed. It was wrong for the locals to do so.
None the less the Pope addressed this issue. Instead of saying, "its an unfortunate incident but let me use this to address the christian missionaries around the world, charity is about giving not trading. Don't trade christianity to feed a mouth."
Did that asshole fucking say that?

NOOOO!!!

He infact called for the missionaries to push harder. And apparenly it was either him or in catholic pamphlets givin out in churches that suggested Hinduism was a religion towards darkness.

FUCKERS!!!! GOD DAMN MOTHER FUCKERS!!!

ARGH!!!!!

How dare they:
first: use missionaries to foce christanity on  people who are in a hole.
and then:
two: claim their religion superior and not consider that CHRIST DOES NOT FEED THE CHRISTIANS.

TECHNOLOGY DOES!!!!

IRRIGATION FERTILIZERS MACHINES IMPROVED FARMING TECHNIQES FEEDS YOU NOT SOME CHACTER FROM THE BOOK TITLED "BIBLE"

Obviously this is a very touchy subject for me.

I cannot stand ignorance.

Worse i can't stand ignorance that stems from something requires such strong blind faith in.

Lets get one thing straight:
I don't think all christians are bad. I have no problem with people praticising their faith.
I have no problems with theological discussions.

I just dislike organised stupidity. THe catholic church and the pope to me is organised stupidty.

grrrr!!! i need a cigerette before i hit the next stupid person the comes my way.