Thu Feb 14 05:54:56 2002

Thu Feb 14 06:27:26 2002

*Note: Paul Hill used without permission.  Sorry.

Thu Feb 14 08:09:06 2002

Thu Feb 14 08:40:50 2002

I liked it. Well worth the wait :)

Thu Feb 14 09:16:20 2002

Thu Feb 14 09:28:28 2002

Thu Feb 14 12:22:50 2002

Thu Feb 14 15:24:38 2002

Thu Feb 14 17:23:56 2002

take C# classes ...

Uhm, sorry if I missed this but I haven't seen any accredited organizations that offer C# classes yet. To be even more bold in my affirmation, allow me to say that I don't even see ASP courses offered at locations.

Case in point, I would *like* to take ASP courses and at FIU, UM AND even FAU, the ONLY programming courses offered are:

C
COBOL
C++
FORTRAN
Java
VB

Nope, no VBS/ASP and DEFinitely no C#. Does this mean there won't be any courses in the future? No, of course not, although I'd be doubtful, since I can't find any respective ASP programs and these are major, accredited, well-established universities.

The sad fact is, Java is the only web-intensive language offered at most locations.

And before we hear of any protests siting locations online that offer classes through the web, let me state emphatically that this is not what I had in mind! Giving me an online class, out of a book is not the environment a novice needs to learn ASP or C#(especially C# since it's so similar to C++).

Secondly, while I found "DrPizza's" explanation of the .NET framework to be extremely useful(kudos), especially concerning issues of private keys and GAC(much more secure), his description of Java and his comparison of that viable platform vs. .NET was obviously biased. Massively biased.

.NET has approximate counterparts to the second and third of those things, but not the first (it has IL, broadly equivalent to Java bytecode, but no high-level language).  .NET was designed to be language agnostic.  One can readily take a C# class, derive a VB.NET class from it, and then use it in a Managed C++ program — the use of different languages is invisible to the programmer.  Whilst a number of languages can compile to Java bytecode, this is not sufficient to make Java language-neutral.  Many of those languages are merely script interpreters written in Java (they do not create Java bytecode, the scripts are not aware of running on the Java platform, and hence, cannot use any Java features); many of the projects are simply abandoned.  Whilst some (for instance, Jython) can interoperate with Java classes, this represents the minority.  The ability to mix and match the languages being used — to write a class in one language, inherit from it in another, and use it in a third — doesn't exist.
The class libraries have a fair degree of commonality.  Java's is currently somewhat more extensive; .NET's is arguably better-developed in some areas (creating forms, for instance).

His use of "somewhat" as  a descriptive for issues concerning Java advantages, while keeping .NET free from such similar adjectives is misleading. It's obvious Peter tries to discredit Java by mitigating its strengths(namely, it's hugely established library of classes, it's l33t set of compilers and its  deeply entrenched and FUNCTIONAL examples of commercial success), while avoiding to stress any of the fears that may be induced by the adoption of .NET.

Still, multiple language frameworks *might* work.

I just think Peter should have stuck to the facts, describing .NETs strengths with library multi-presence and stayed away from trashing Java, even subtly.

M.

Thu Feb 14 17:24:41 2002

I am not impressed.

you must be a Sun worshipping iZealot :)

Thu Feb 14 18:01:15 2002

Uhm, sorry if I missed this but I haven't seen any accredited organizations that offer C# classes yet. To be even more bold in my affirmation, allow me to say that I don't even see ASP courses offered at locations.

Madan, either you are joking here or you misunderstood.  Since you went on to explain more about this, I will assume the latter.

I think the line that prompted your reply (re: class) was this one: One can readily take a C# class, derive a VB.NET class from it, and then use it in a managed C++ program -- the use of different languages is invisible to the programmer.  If my assumption is incorrect, then please let me know what you're basing your reply on.

I believe you misunderstood.  DrP isn't saying here that you should "take a class" in terms of sitting down in a room with other students and a teacher; he's talking about the programming-related function (for lack of a better term from me) that happens to be labeled 'class.'  Earlier in the doc, he refers to "a hierarchical set of class libraries" (under "The .NET Framework") -- this is the 'class' in question.

Thu Feb 14 18:05:16 2002

"Class" refers to a programming object within a language like C++ of C#.

silly :)

Thu Feb 14 18:32:47 2002

Madan, either you are joking here or you misunderstood.  Since you went on to explain more about this, I will assume the latter.

Misunderstood. My fault. My bad. Me ams a goode wreadar, rilly I jam! ;)

I was reading it at work. Just skimmed it.

I know about classes. I remember them from my Java class.

In any event, I still think in my brutal stupidity, I made a half-way decent point.

Learning Java or C# is better done in a classroom environment, when speaking of novices. Java can be found. ASP and C sharp cannot and ASP's been around for awhile.
M.

Thu Feb 14 20:46:55 2002

Thu Feb 14 21:29:15 2002

Fri Feb 15 02:18:50 2002

It's written by Peter, of course it's going to be biased.

However, it was very informative, even if it did read a little like a cook book. :cheesy:

Fri Feb 15 04:12:20 2002

His use of "somewhat" as  a descriptive for issues concerning Java advantages, while keeping .NET free from such similar adjectives is misleading.

The degree isn't all that great, but it is (presently) a small bit broader in its scope.  It has Big Number classes, for instance, for arbitrary precision integer and fixed-point arithmetic.  .NET's class library currently has no equivalent.

The broad functionality of each class library is identical -- it's in esoteric cases such as the above that the most notable differences are apparent.

It's obvious Peter tries to discredit Java by mitigating its strengths(namely, it's hugely established library of classes,

it's l33t set of compilers

and its  deeply entrenched and FUNCTIONAL examples of commercial success),

while avoiding to stress any of the fears that may be induced by the adoption of .NET.

I just think Peter should have stuck to the facts, describing .NETs strengths with library multi-presence and stayed away from trashing Java, even subtly.

I did say that the two platforms were *different*, and explained some of those differences.

You complain I didn't stick to the "facts", but then complain I didn't speculate on non-technical issues (while avoiding to stress any of the fears that may be induced by the adoption of .NET).  It appears that I can't win.

Fri Feb 15 05:46:44 2002

But what I still would like to know, and have yet to figure out, is why .NET is the way it is, what problems it is intended to solve, how it is likely to be positioned, and so on.  So far I have yet to see anything like this.  Sure, .NET gets programmers all excited, but why should it get the rest of us excited?  That's an article I'd like to read.

Fri Feb 15 09:25:44 2002

madan, lol! i was wondering why the hell you were going on about taking classes to learn these languages especially since i gathered from what everyone else was saying it was a technical article. :biggrin:

#include <stdio.h> // me used to think it was STUDIO misspelt! then i realised it was Standard I/O

HA HA HA!!!!

Mon Feb 18 03:41:47 2002

Wed Feb 20 21:07:33 2002

Simple: have Hitman colloborate on the next article.

Facts and FUD go hand-in-hand!

Wed Feb 20 21:36:48 2002

Entrenchment isn't a technical advantage.

I'll remember that the next time you try to pimp me on the Wonders of Wintel. After all, what's more pervasive than that?

BTW, I mentioned that you should *stick to the facts*.

And yes, imo, you scratched at Java. But we'll just keep that betwixt the both of us, yes?

M.

Wed Feb 20 22:52:38 2002

from Madan posted at 4:36 pm on Feb. 20, 2002

Entrenchment isn't a technical advantage.

I'll remember that the next time you try to pimp me on the Wonders of Wintel. After all, what's more pervasive than that?

But Windows does have technical advantages further than entrenchment, so I see you losing that argument.

Thu Feb 21 06:24:03 2002

from Madan posted at 9:36 pm on Feb. 20, 2002

Entrenchment isn't a technical advantage.

I'll remember that the next time you try to pimp me on the Wonders of Wintel. After all, what's more pervasive than that?

BTW, I mentioned that you should *stick to the facts*.

And yes, imo, you scratched at Java. But we'll just keep that betwixt the both of us, yes?

Thu Feb 21 06:52:13 2002

What technical advantages does Java have?

It's slow and bloated.

...Sorry, that's the best I could do.

Thu Feb 21 07:13:19 2002

Does .Net allow that sort of flexability in making small programs that can be used by other devices other then computers, PDAs? Then again it's not a bad thing if .NET doesn't do that because:
1) its better for a programming language to stick to a limited task that way it doesn't become to much of everything and I guess makes the development package/enviroment less cluttered.
2) Java midlets, as far as i'm aware is not the same as Java on computers, but a subset defined for portable devices. No clue though.

None the less its sweet that i can play pac man, space invaders or other old school arcade games on my cell phone. Plus its nice that I have some email client that almost parallels the email clients available on computers. ALl this in a small cellphone that plays MP3's too!!! Whao technology is soooo coooll!!!!

(Edited by OscarWilde at 2:14 pm on Feb. 21, 2002)

Thu Feb 21 09:28:54 2002

Sun Feb 24 06:07:28 2002

Does .Net allow that sort of flexability in making small programs that can be used by other devices other then computers, PDAs? Then again it's not a bad thing if .NET doesn't do that because:

1) its better for a programming language to stick to a limited task that way it doesn't become to much of everything and I guess makes the development package/enviroment less cluttered.

2) Java midlets, as far as i'm aware is not the same as Java on computers, but a subset defined for portable devices. No clue though.