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Thread #: 1053

The French are going after MS it seems

AllYorBaseRBelong2Us

Thu Oct 11 06:01:50 2001

I just heard a news report that the French Government is going after MS for "Monopolistic Blah Blah Blah"

Under French law, they could fine MS 10% of it's revanue.

Supposedly they have some sort of problem with XP and software bundling.

[size=24][color=red]Silly Microsoft Pigdogs![/color][/size]

Pizza, have you heard about this?  What the hell, exactly, is their Beef?

OscarWilde

Thu Oct 11 13:13:54 2001

You're asking Peter about this? You know peter is going to say somethign to the effect that msoft is just the victim of FUD and blah blah blah....

Anywhoooo... thats interesting, albeit i thought it was old news. So maybe this is something new. Hmmm....

And is the beef thing a pun on the mad cows disease?

DrPizza

Thu Oct 11 14:38:10 2001

They don't like that MS bundle media player with Windows 2000.

This strikes me as dumb.

It ignores:
(1) What people actually want (which is, an OS that can play media files)
(2) What the competition to Windows (which does exist, despite the claims of many) offers (which is, QuickTime and other media players).
(3) Windows XP.  It's only pertinent to Windows 2000.

MS should remove all presence from France and not pay them a penny.

Riso

Thu Oct 11 15:23:51 2001

Would serve those french bastards right.

Time for a french leave.

OscarWilde

Thu Oct 11 15:42:49 2001

That is pretty stupid actually.
I'm sure there is more to it then that.
hmmm....
AllYorBaseRBelong2Us

Thu Oct 11 16:27:43 2001

That is pretty stupid actually.
I'm sure there is more to it then that.
hmmm....

I've *heard* through news sources that there are a lot of French run companies over there that are virtual monopolies, but they are government run.

Is that true?

It sure would explain things.

Harbinger

Thu Oct 11 19:38:58 2001

AYB:
I've *heard* through news sources that there are a lot of French run companies over there that are virtual monopolies, but they are government run.

Is that true?

It sure would explain things.

So, internal monopolies are OK, but not foreign ones?  ;)

Socrates

Thu Oct 11 21:17:58 2001

Sure.  An interior monopoly at least keeps the countries wealth in the country, even though it moves it around.

Other countries might not want their funds being syphoned into Bill Gates pockets.

Perfectly understandable from a nationalistic perspective.
Same objection people have to countries that colonize, like Great Britian.

Socrates

DuffMan

Fri Oct 12 00:17:34 2001

Accusing MS of wrongdoing for software bundling is retarded. It's just more 1's and 0's on a piece of plastic. Get over it.
OscarWilde

Fri Oct 12 01:06:09 2001

lol!!!

Yeah i can just hear the lawers saying to the judges in France, "Accusing MS of wrongdoing for software bundling is retarded. It's just more 1's and 0's on a piece of plastic. Get over it."

LOL!!!!

(Edited by OscarWilde at 9:11 am on Oct. 12, 2001)

OscarWilde

Fri Oct 12 01:10:33 2001

Peter, if people want Word for Windows (and this is somethig that more people want then a media player) then why is it that Microsoft is not bundling Word into windows 2000 or even XP.
Just going by your way of thinking. And yes I know there is write and notepad, but when I mention that to some of the people here that ask for my advice on their computer purchase, they insist on Word. This is becaues they are used to it at work.
SO anyways.
The people want Word specifically.
Microsoft should follow the industry trend and bundle that too at little to no cost of the total cost of Windows 2000 or XP.
HitScan

Fri Oct 12 01:21:16 2001

OW: Yeah, it'd be nice if they would, buuutt...
They don't because people will pay for Word. It's handy, and a large complex app. Media players can be had a dime a dozen like Vegas hookers down on there luck. If MS didn't bundle it, few people would ever notice, nevermind giving a damn about it.
Socrates

Fri Oct 12 01:23:31 2001

I kind of like the little guys in these cases.

I know that Apple tried to get the code either softraid, or atto used, to write their new OS X raid software.

If I remember right, it was pretty much blatant extortion,
give it to me, or you don't get source code for os X, so you can rewrite your program.

If you've followed apples' included os features, like a ramdisk, they are usually half as fast, have half as many
features, and generally work like shit compared to 3rd party
software.  This the case with Softraid, and Rambunctious, and ATTO as well.

Having a shitty product bundled with your os, and making people think it's the best they can get, is why anti-monopoly laws work.

At least with win 2k, the raid software included actually works, and very well.

Socrates

OscarWilde

Fri Oct 12 06:03:37 2001

Media players can be had a dime a dozen like Vegas hookers down on there luck. If MS didn't bundle it, few people would ever notice, nevermind giving a damn about it.

Well thats the whole point then isn't it? That fact that if Microsoft doesn't bundle it, then people who WANT a media app can choose to download different solutions which could mean an increase in demand for the competitors apps. If Microsoft makes a good media player then people would download it and use it. If people want to use Realplayer or Quicktime they too can download it. You see now because there are no media apps included in the OS then people can choose based on the merits of the various media player.
I'm not suggesting that Msoft not bundle a media player in their OS because it is one of those intrinsic features of a modern consumer OS.
I just don't buy the argument that Msoft bundle's it because thats what people want.
I'm more for the argument that with processors becoming more and more poweful, and storage space getting larger and cheaper and faster, that media based applications are the next logical step. Therefor an OS should at the basic level support media applcations. So with this I support msoft in bundling a media player. It would be retarded not to.
Anyhow Microsoft should rename their media player not to include Windows in it.
Kinda like Apple Quicktime Player. It no where suggests that its for needed for the mac (granted the Apple part), unlike Microsoft Windows Media Player which makes it sound like its a part of the OS because of the word Windows in its name. Just call it Microsoft Media Player. You know what I mean? That way the app doesn't contain the same name as the OS. Keep the two apart.
Windows OS uses Media Player vs. Windows OS uses Windows Media Player.
Well okay i really have no idea what i'm talking about...

DrPizza

Fri Oct 12 06:12:37 2001

from OscarWilde posted at 2:10 am on Oct. 12, 2001

Peter, if people want Word for Windows (and this is somethig that more people want then a media player) then why is it that Microsoft is not bundling Word into windows 2000 or even XP.
Just going by your way of thinking.

Because the competition to Word isn't (yet) available for free, so they don't have to.  The competition to WMP, however, *is* available for free (though QuickTime and RealPlayer have payware versions, they both have free versions).  Linux isn't sufficiently threatening that the OS has to be free.

And yes I know there is write and notepad, but when I mention that to some of the people here that ask for my advice on their computer purchase, they insist on Word. This is becaues they are used to it at work.
SO anyways.
The people want Word specifically.
Microsoft should follow the industry trend and bundle that too at little to no cost of the total cost of Windows 2000 or XP.

Except there is no such industry trend.  Word processors tend to cost money.

The same is not true for media players.

Media Player has been bundled with Windows since Windows 3.1.  It seems ridiculous to only criticize the bundling in Windows 2000.

Socrates

Fri Oct 12 07:25:25 2001

Apple has included a ram disk program.  It sucks. Rambunctious is twice as fast, twice as many features, and saves on shutdown far better.

Still, Apple is attempting to run them out of business.

Same with Softraid, and their raid software.
First OS x won't allow booting from a raid 0 array, something you could do in software raid, with earlier os.
Second, they include their own version of software raid, in OS X, and I don't really know if it works or not.

On the other hand, HD tach is 50 bucks, for a stupid benchmark, and, sys mon is free, along with many disk utilities.

With the high price of MSFT oss, they should include lots of good software.

Socrates

DuffMan

Fri Oct 12 09:16:39 2001

Who's to say what's intrinsic to an OS and what is not. Should MS not include Explorer because there are other shells available.

Also Windows itself doesn't do anything to restrict you from using other media players. As long as OEM's are free to add what they want, I don't see what the problem is here.

Socrates

Fri Oct 12 10:08:15 2001

Not an even playing field.  The other developers are at the mercy of the os maker, and therefore, they should be held to a higher standard, since they have monopoly control of the code.

Example:
Guys can't get drivers done for os x, because apple doesn't make a decesion until the last second, and finalize the code.
Therefore, they are going to have an advantage in writing their programs, because they at least know the direction the os is going, earlier then their releases to what are essentially their competitors.

Socrates

OscarWilde

Sat Oct 13 19:04:41 2001

bump

I plan to reply to this thread eventually. Right now i have a nasty lump at the back of my ear on my neck. Its not a tumor so thats a good thing. It just hurts like a bitch though, so thats a bad thing.

socrates, what are you going on about? You keep going on and on about apple like you just wanna bash apple because its an easy target to get everyone on your side. Second of all where is the proof about what you're saying, other then some articles based on heresay (sp?).

Peter you do realise that you just made Msoft sound anti-competitive.
I agree that focusing on win2k only is retarded. Or focusing on media players is a bit inane especially seeing as it seems that it depends more on what the content providers are using versus on whats bundled with the OS.
Anyway I find it funny how in your last post, not sure if you were being sarcastic, that you made Msoft sound like they were infact being anti-competitive.

OscarWilde

Sat Oct 13 19:09:14 2001

duffman, i think intrinsic is a complex idea of demand and what current technology can provide.
mp3 is on demand.
mpeg is on demand.
current processors can handle media formats pretty well (along with add on dsp's, i.e. video cards have built in mpeg decoders, etc.)
The internet and the growth of  high speed connections like broadband and cable.
It only makes sense that a modern OS should handle this to some extent. And its better marketing too. Buy my OS, install it, get on the internet, download the latest porn videos and watch it, all with no additional software.
Socrates

Sat Oct 13 22:54:33 2001

OW:
People I like use macs, and have to deal with Apple's bullshit.

An excellent source of information is www.macgurus.com

Go into the forums and look around.  Magician really know macs, and he's really honest about the problems with macs, and working with them.

One of my favorite guys, Ward Connolly, the guy that I think, owns and writes Softraid, the best raid software for the mac, comes in and out of the forum.  He's been having problems getting a final product, so he can get his product working with OS X, if, he CAN get it to work with OS X.

Also, ATTO has been at the mercy of Mac OS X code, and, I believe is one of the major reasons they haven't got around to figuring out why their 98 drivers for my 700 dollar Raid
card don't work.

My comments are based on many emails, and phone conversations with ATTO on this issue.

I finally gave up.  They can't go through development for macs, and pcs, at the sametime.  Not enough resources.

Sides, if you have a mac, Magician and that forum are the best at solving problems, period.

Socrates

DrPizza

Sun Oct 14 15:46:40 2001

from OscarWilde posted at 8:04 pm on Oct. 13, 2001Peter you do realise that you just made Msoft sound anti-competitive.

How so?

Media players have been bundled for free with OSes for a considerable period of time.  Examples: Sound Recoder, Media Player, with Windows 3.1, and equivalent applications for MacOS (and eventually Linux).  I'm pretty sure that MacOS has some kind of media capability that predates that of Windows -- but it's not really important; MacOS has certainly had media players bundled for longer than Windows 2000 has existed.

There is a strong precedent for bundling them for free.

Similarly, there is a strong precedent for web browsers being free.  Gopher clients were free, Mosaic was free, lynx was free, and so on.  Netscape bucked the trend by saying, "we'll distribute it for free, but you have to pay us to use it".  MS simply chose not to compete in this market of paid-for web browsers.  Instead, they followed the traditional lead, and made their browser free.

If the majority of web browsers out there weren't free, giving it away would be anti-competitive.  But if the majority of web browsers out there *are* free, giving it away is all you can do /to/ compete.

The same isn't true for word processors -- so there is no reason for MS to bundle their word processor for free.  Further, I can guarantee that they would be had up in court for being anticompetitive.

"being competitive" doesn't mean "giving away everything for free just because people want it".  If they *were* to give everything away for free, that'd be far more anti-competitive -- it would be dumping (not in the US, of course, you can only dump abroad).

If MS is dumping Media Player (which isn't what they've been accused of, mind you) then Apple is just as guilty.  As are those open source consultancy companies who write code for clients, but GPL it and make it broadly available.

I agree that focusing on win2k only is retarded. Or focusing on media players is a bit inane especially seeing as it seems that it depends more on what the content providers are using versus on whats bundled with the OS.
Anyway I find it funny how in your last post, not sure if you were being sarcastic, that you made Msoft sound like they were infact being anti-competitive.

I'm not sure how.

Their being competitive relies on them playing by the same set of rules as their competitors.  It happens that different rules are used for media players than for word processors.  Just because in one market it's typical to bundle for free doesn't mean that it is in other markets.

DuffMan

Sun Oct 14 17:24:32 2001

Why do you say, that you can only dump abroad?
AllYorBaseRBelong2Us

Sun Oct 14 18:32:33 2001

When Apple released OSX, it took one of the biggest dumps on the market in recent memory, and the DoJ is doing nothing about it, but the Department of  Sanitation is considering action.

:biggrin:

troll++

Harbinger

Mon Oct 15 03:22:48 2001

AYB, now THAT was funny!  :biggrin:
HitScan

Mon Oct 15 03:39:39 2001


When Apple released OSX, it took one of the biggest dumps on the market in recent memory, and the DoJ is doing nothing about it, but the Department of  Sanitation is considering action.

:biggrin:


AYB: A Winner Is You! :cheesy:
DrPizza

Mon Oct 15 16:31:55 2001

from DuffMan posted at 6:24 pm on Oct. 14, 2001

Why do you say, that you can only dump abroad?

Because that's what it is, by definition.
Harbinger

Mon Oct 15 16:50:03 2001

from DuffMan posted at 1:24 pm on Oct. 14, 2001

Why do you say, that you can only dump abroad?

Last time I dumped a broad, she became a lesbian.

Guess I just spoiled her; no other man could compete. ;)

Riso

Mon Oct 15 16:51:54 2001

Things like that make me wish France were a part of Reichsgermany* (along with it).


*which interestingly was never dissolved (on the paper).

pdampier

Sat Oct 20 04:53:16 2001

Didn't France want to fine MS $2-3 billion? I say MS should fill a few B-52's with $3 billion in quarters and drop them over Paris and then pull out of France completely.  Still leaves $33 billion in the bank.

After all, MWNH reckons he can do it all with Java :)